Incompatible gears?

[-missy-]

Hello.

I wanted to post this as its been on my mind for a while now. The purpose of this thread is NOT to speak badly about anyone or any thing in particular but to ask for advice. I don't know what to do about this particular situation so any advice would be most welcome. It feels like I already know the answer to this so maybe this is just to try and get something off my chest so to speak.

A few years ago, I was approached by some members of a group which I am a member of. It was to ask if I could design them a machine to cut gears based upon a previous smaller machine I had designed and built for my own personal use.



Various conversations via emails and teams calls happened, and it was agreed between myself and others that I would design and make a larger machine which fulfilled their requirements. The proviso was two machines were to be manufactured, and I was to keep one of the machines while they get the other for manufacturing gears to their needs.
Time passed and I spent many, many hours of my spare time designing the new machine. It came to around 6 months of my spare time in total. This design was then agreed on, and it was passed onto another person to manufacture the machine (as I did not have the equipment to make it myself).
Once it was made, it was then passed back to me to finish off buy installing all the control gear and modifying the programming to suit the new machine. At the time I had to add quite a few bits and bobs to the machine which I mostly took from my own supplies. This took about another 2 months of my spare time to finish off the build and to commission the machine. It was then passed onto someone who then has subsequently used the machine to manufacture gears. From what I have learnt, the machine has surpassed expectations and the guy is really enjoying using it. It has, as far as I am aware put the group in a really good position for the future.
Roll on a few months and I thought I would inquire about what is happening about the second machine (for myself). This is where things have got a bit messed up.
My email was replied to saying the guy who made the bits for the machine has been instructed to make a second set of parts. This was quickly followed by an email from that guy to instruct me to buy all the other bits needed as he has been told the just make the machined parts only. I contacted the guy I originally spoke to about the machine who told me 'that's what we agreed wasn't it?'. It wasn't what I was expecting. To his credit, he did ask if I put in a claim for all the bits I supplied to which I replied saying it was stuff I had already and it would be difficult to do.
So, as I am writing this, I feel a bit hard done by. Obviously, my expectations were different to theirs, and so its now reached an impasse. They are expecting me to procure several hundred pounds worth of parts for this second machine before anything else is made. Not what I was expecting to do.
I guess the following points are sort of relevant...

• Nothing was agreed and written down at the beginning of all this. A lesson I have now learnt the hard way.
• The group have a machine which by all account is working beyond expectations, which is a really good thing.
• Unfortunately, as a result, I am now left out of pocket and without a machine of my own.
• I invested over 8 months of my spare time on this project but I was not expecting anything for it.
• I should have been more specific at the beginning of all this. Lesson learnt.

If you are now here and read all of the above I thank you. As I said at the beginning, I am not really sure what I want from this. I needed to get it off my chest. I don't want to upset anyone by it. I need to get rid of this feeling I have been let down and used. Hopefully, this is a cautionary tale for others.

Thanks

Julia.

 

[simond]

Julia,

Your machine is a truly outstanding piece of engineering and I was absolutely staggered by what you have achieved.

I do hope a solution can be found
Good luck
Simon

 

[James Spooner]

Julia,

I’m with Simon on this. Reading between the lines I think you accept there are some life lessons to be learned here. If you are entering into a deal with someone or a group and it seems they are looking at it from a commercial perspective, then you have to as well and so need to get your terms agreed in writing beforehand. Sadly, in this day and age, it seems to be insufficient to ‘shake hands’ on a deal and expect it to be honoured. I do hope you manage to get this sorted.

Nigel

 

[smgee]

Sorry that you find yourself in this position, Julia.

Rather than a deal not being honoured, as Nigel suggests, could it be that the various parties simply had different understandings of what the deal actually was, as nothing was written down? It does sound like they’re not putting any value on your time and expertise, which I’ve seen before. People will put a cost on parts and materials, but your time - well that’s free isn’t it? Without a record of what was agreed, I don’t think there’s much you can do but treat it as a life lesson.

I agree with Simon - I’ve seen the machine on YouTube I believe and it’s an outstanding piece of work.

 

[Overseer]

Hello.

I wanted to post this as its been on my mind for a while now. The purpose of this thread is NOT to speak badly about anyone or any thing in particular but to ask for advice. I don't know what to do about this particular situation so any advice would be most welcome. It feels like I already know the answer to this so maybe this is just to try and get something off my chest so to speak.

A few years ago, I was approached by some members of a group which I am a member of. It was to ask if I could design them a machine to cut gears based upon a previous smaller machine I had designed and built for my own personal use.

View attachment 252741

Various conversations via emails and teams calls happened, and it was agreed between myself and others that I would design and make a larger machine which fulfilled their requirements. The proviso was two machines were to be manufactured, and I was to keep one of the machines while they get the other for manufacturing gears to their needs.
Time passed and I spent many, many hours of my spare time designing the new machine. It came to around 6 months of my spare time in total. This design was then agreed on, and it was passed onto another person to manufacture the machine (as I did not have the equipment to make it myself).
Once it was made, it was then passed back to me to finish off buy installing all the control gear and modifying the programming to suit the new machine. At the time I had to add quite a few bits and bobs to the machine which I mostly took from my own supplies. This took about another 2 months of my spare time to finish off the build and to commission the machine. It was then passed onto someone who then has subsequently used the machine to manufacture gears. From what I have learnt, the machine has surpassed expectations and the guy is really enjoying using it. It has, as far as I am aware put the group in a really good position for the future.
Roll on a few months and I thought I would inquire about what is happening about the second machine (for myself). This is where things have got a bit messed up.
My email was replied to saying the guy who made the bits for the machine has been instructed to make a second set of parts. This was quickly followed by an email from that guy to instruct me to buy all the other bits needed as he has been told the just make the machined parts only. I contacted the guy I originally spoke to about the machine who told me 'that's what we agreed wasn't it?'. It wasn't what I was expecting. To his credit, he did ask if I put in a claim for all the bits I supplied to which I replied saying it was stuff I had already and it would be difficult to do.
So, as I am writing this, I feel a bit hard done by. Obviously, my expectations were different to theirs, and so its now reached an impasse. They are expecting me to procure several hundred pounds worth of parts for this second machine before anything else is made. Not what I was expecting to do.
I guess the following points are sort of relevant...

• Nothing was agreed and written down at the beginning of all this. A lesson I have now learnt the hard way.
• The group have a machine which by all account is working beyond expectations, which is a really good thing.
• Unfortunately, as a result, I am now left out of pocket and without a machine of my own.
• I invested over 8 months of my spare time on this project but I was not expecting anything for it.
• I should have been more specific at the beginning of all this. Lesson learnt.

If you are now here and read all of the above I thank you. As I said at the beginning, I am not really sure what I want from this. I needed to get it off my chest. I don't want to upset anyone by it. I need to get rid of this feeling I have been let down and used. Hopefully, this is a cautionary tale for others.

Thanks

Julia.

Hi Julia

I am a lapsed group member, not for any particular reason just got too busy with work and forgot to renew a few years ago, so have seen your work over the years. I have used the older versions of the gears in some models and am always on the lookout for gears for various odd models in S7, 1:48, HO, 1:160 and others. I just rewatched the video of the machine in action to remind me how impressive it is. Just right for the quantities and quality needed for our use. I have no idea what your arrangements were and know it can be difficult when a member of an organisation to balance time and money inputs. Anyway, I am happy to pay the several hundred pounds for the parts needed to complete your machine. If you can make me a few worm wheels in the future that would be good but the offer is not dependant on it.

I like making mechanisms for odd things like these HO broad gauge (5'3" 18.3mm gauge) models




The railmotor is a Steam Era Models kit which comes with a perfectly good motor and gearbox but I wanted to keep the interior clear so used one of the coreless motors and 30:1 gear sets from the group. The other two use Steam Era Models gears as used in their Black Beetle motor bogies - their gears are made in bulk by a contractor on a high tech CNC machine so it is just not economic to have small quantities made.

Let me know if I can help.

Fraser

 

[Fitzroy]

Hi,
for what its worth I would insist on getting at least the machined parts if nothing else. I don't see how they could argue that can't be done. Then at the very least you have got something out of the whole exercise that you wouldn't have been able to get otherwise.
It's very easy to be wise after the event but unless you have been financially bitten before, asking for everything to be agreed in writing up front is very difficult in the context of an association. I've been there, thought it was very petty at the time to demand everything in a written agreement, then got stiiffed by fellow members who believed what they want to believe after the event, because it was all "for the greater good". Subsequently it was very easy to say "No" to further requests for help, or demand a contract, on the basis I'd personally lost out previously.

I assume you have drawings and CAD models, pcb layouts etc. All 2D artwork is automatically covered by copyright. It's your property, unless they get ownership of the data pack in return for the second machine or bits thereof. I hope they don't assume they hold any kind of rights associated with it. If you don't get anything out of them it might be worth considering reminding them specifically in writing they have no rights to make spares, repair parts etc, or using your drawings to make improved machines etc, or any rights to provide any data such as drawings to anyone else. You might also have a product there that you can monetise in some way yourself by licensing, or selling plans etc in the future.

It's a very nice bit of kit and I hope at some point the positives outweigh the negatives.

 

[-missy-]

Thanks for the positive comments guys. Its appreciated.

There are some interesting opinions too that have really got me thinking. Do you think there is much demand for such a machine?

Fraser - If I had a machine I would be more than happy to do some gears for you! If you are desperate you could always contact the 2mmSa and ask for some custom gears. I know they guy cutting them is enjoying using the machine.

Julia.

 

[Matt.S.]

Julia - I'm very sorry to hear about this, your machine has made such a step change to the Association's reliable procurement/manufacture of gears for the longer term.

I hope you can come to an amicable conclusion and heal some of the hurt here. Your skills and talents would be a huge loss to the Association. In some respects the fluid nature of a volunteer organisation doesn't help here.

Re demand for the machine - we've often reflected that between the QAG and NZAG there could be some sort of local supply chain, however we don't really consume enough of the same products to make it worth our while...

 

[PaxtonP4]

To his credit, he did ask if I put in a claim for all the bits I supplied to which I replied saying it was stuff I had already and it would be difficult to do.

On the contrary I would do exactly that. You have to buy the bits to complete your model, that they are making the bits for, so claim from them as you provided them for the first machine. I would not feel embarrassed to do so.

From what you have written it seems to me that they are actually honouring what you believed the agreement was i.e. they would provide you with the machined parts for a second machine in return for your time in designing it. They are probably wondering why you haven’t claimed for the equipment that you had to buy and fit to their machine. So as I said above claim for the equipment that you now have to buy to make your machine (as you have used what you had for their machine). That is indicated to me by your statement "To his credit, he did ask if I put in a claim for all the bits I supplied".

 

[paulc]

Hi

Hello.

I wanted to post this as its been on my mind for a while now. The purpose of this thread is NOT to speak badly about anyone or any thing in particular but to ask for advice. I don't know what to do about this particular situation so any advice would be most welcome. It feels like I already know the answer to this so maybe this is just to try and get something off my chest so to speak.

A few years ago, I was approached by some members of a group which I am a member of. It was to ask if I could design them a machine to cut gears based upon a previous smaller machine I had designed and built for my own personal use.

View attachment 252741

Various conversations via emails and teams calls happened, and it was agreed between myself and others that I would design and make a larger machine which fulfilled their requirements. The proviso was two machines were to be manufactured, and I was to keep one of the machines while they get the other for manufacturing gears to their needs.
Time passed and I spent many, many hours of my spare time designing the new machine. It came to around 6 months of my spare time in total. This design was then agreed on, and it was passed onto another person to manufacture the machine (as I did not have the equipment to make it myself).
Once it was made, it was then passed back to me to finish off buy installing all the control gear and modifying the programming to suit the new machine. At the time I had to add quite a few bits and bobs to the machine which I mostly took from my own supplies. This took about another 2 months of my spare time to finish off the build and to commission the machine. It was then passed onto someone who then has subsequently used the machine to manufacture gears. From what I have learnt, the machine has surpassed expectations and the guy is really enjoying using it. It has, as far as I am aware put the group in a really good position for the future.
Roll on a few months and I thought I would inquire about what is happening about the second machine (for myself). This is where things have got a bit messed up.
My email was replied to saying the guy who made the bits for the machine has been instructed to make a second set of parts. This was quickly followed by an email from that guy to instruct me to buy all the other bits needed as he has been told the just make the machined parts only. I contacted the guy I originally spoke to about the machine who told me 'that's what we agreed wasn't it?'. It wasn't what I was expecting. To his credit, he did ask if I put in a claim for all the bits I supplied to which I replied saying it was stuff I had already and it would be difficult to do.
So, as I am writing this, I feel a bit hard done by. Obviously, my expectations were different to theirs, and so its now reached an impasse. They are expecting me to procure several hundred pounds worth of parts for this second machine before anything else is made. Not what I was expecting to do.
I guess the following points are sort of relevant...

• Nothing was agreed and written down at the beginning of all this. A lesson I have now learnt the hard way.
• The group have a machine which by all account is working beyond expectations, which is a really good thing.
• Unfortunately, as a result, I am now left out of pocket and without a machine of my own.
• I invested over 8 months of my spare time on this project but I was not expecting anything for it.
• I should have been more specific at the beginning of all this. Lesson learnt.

If you are now here and read all of the above I thank you. As I said at the beginning, I am not really sure what I want from this. I needed to get it off my chest. I don't want to upset anyone by it. I need to get rid of this feeling I have been let down and used. Hopefully, this is a cautionary tale for others.

Thanks

Julia.

Hi Julia , just to clarify . Is the build process for the second machine the same as for the first ? Another party builds the machine and then passes it back to you to install the control gear ?
Is this what was agreed ?

 

[-missy-]

Hi.

Sorry, I need to clarify that bit.

The original machine was passed to me with everything except the control system. So I got the first machine with all the guide rails, bearings, stepper motors, pulleys, etc. I supplied the controllers, connectors, wiring, etc.
For the second machine (my machine) they are asking I supply everything with the exception of the machined parts. So that will include the guide rails, bearings, stepper motors, etc. As well as the control system.

Julia.

 

[-missy-]

Hi

Hi Julia , just to clarify . Is the build process for the second machine the same as for the first ? Another party builds the machine and then passes it back to you to install the control gear ?
Is this what was agreed ?

Hi Paul.

The machine heavily replies upon commercial parts (it was part of the requirement). Many of them need to be modified in some way too. All these components including the other bits too are what they are asking me to purchase before the guy starts manufacturing anything.
I was under the assumption that I would get a machine identical to the first but this doesn't seem to be the case. My fault I guess for wrongly assuming this at the beginning.

Julia.

 

[Neil]

From what you have said in the initial post, there was an expectation that two machines would be made and you would keep one, infers that the same process for both machines (making and procuring the bits) would happen. What do your emails say and what is the understanding of other parties on the teams calls?

Also, should groups not behave in a better, more understanding, more ethical manner towards its members than a strictly commercial organisation would?

 

[-missy-]

From what you have said in the initial post, there was an expectation that two machines would be made and you would keep one, infers that the same process for both machines (making and procuring the bits) would happen. What do your emails say and what is the understanding of other parties on the teams calls?

Also, should groups not behave in a better, more understanding, more ethical manner towards its members than a strictly commercial organisation would?

Hi Neil.

Thats the problem. I have checked through all my associated emails and there is nothing beyond "2 machines, one for the group and one for myself". Nowhere does it state what condition the machines would be in.

As I said in my original post and people have said here too. Life lesson learnt.

Julia.

 

[richard carr]

Well in my view "2 machines, one for the group and one for myself" is clear, they owe you a fully working machine just as they got.

I would send them a bill for all the parts you supplied, just look up the new price from suppliers and charge them that, if in doubt add some extra.

You are being far too nice to them

Richard

 

[PaxtonP4]

100% behind Richards comments. If you have "2 machines, one for the group and one for myself" in writing then you are owed a machine in recognition for your expertise and design work.

As I have said above charge them for the components you provided.

 

[Ian Smith]

Julia,
I’m truly saddened that you have had such a bad experience over of this. Although I don’t know the full picture, I can’t help but feel that you have a legitimate grievance. I sincerely hope that the final outcome will be to your satisfaction.
Regards
Ian

 

[paulc]

Well in my view "2 machines, one for the group and one for myself" is clear, they owe you a fully working machine just as they got.

I would send them a bill for all the parts you supplied, just look up the new price from suppliers and charge them that, if in doubt add some extra.

You are being far too nice to them

Richard

Totally agree . It sounds like the group got what they wanted but have forgotten their obligations to you as the designer of the unit . To stand on your digs may involve losing some friends in the group though so i think all parties need to reach a compromise and treat the outcome as a life lesson .

 

[michael080]

I think it is hard to believe that a person or group is naive enough to ask for months of work, massive investment in resources without being aware that a compensation is expected.
I think Richard and Paul are right!

 

[PaxtonP4]

To stand on your digs may involve losing some friends in the group though

If I had "friends" who treated me that way they wouldn’t be friends - so I wouldn’t loose any friends from that point on.