7mm The Old Man's Workbench - tales of a rivet side

[Dog Star]

This is a rather unusual post... writing about something which is being built on the workbench of another WTer and which might be construed as indoctrination by the back door. Peeps sometimes ask "why bother with internet forums?" and I was one several years back (holds up hand and admits to never using the defunt web-forum of the S7 Group). However, WT is different and is much like a model railway club in your own workshop... inspiration and helpful advice by the shed-load. This post is about another aspect of WT membership, co-operation in modelling.

Earlier this year a WT-member wrote about his construction of a 7mm wagon for the S7 Love Lane project, nothing odd about that... other than said member has a leaning to 0-FS rather than S7 and is domicile at least 180 miles from WMR-HQ. A subsequent discussion brought forth the offer to build some wagons for West Wycombe which is our project. Shelf Queens moved home and discussions as to what to do have taken place. My part in the work is to provide historical information for our period (pre-1910) and for circa 1930s (as the person who made the offer has some of the same kits) plus sourcing parts which might benefit the models (either additional or replacement detail).

So a raft of Slater's GWR MEX are on a bench somewhere in Britain and might just appear here... or in another workbench topic of WT.

WT brings out the best in members, thank you Robin.

regards, Graham

 

[Dog Star]

The S7 Group is holding a competition to promote S7 layouts... build a layout, within 33 sq ft, which is transportable in one car (to encourage layouts which appeal to exhibition organisers). The closing date for the competition is October 2014 and the entrants are to be judged at the S7 meeting at Mark (also October 2014). In discussion with a WT-er who has entered the competition the subject of tack/underlay/baseboard was covered, hence this post to consider the way forward.

I understand that the track plan has been drawn in templot and printed on copious A3 sheets of copy paper (so circa 90gsm and probably without a glazed surface). The track plan is to be stuck onto the baseboard surface so that the PW can be built direct on the 6mm birch ply which has been used for the top of the board. This approach prompts some questions:-

* what treatment ought to be applied to the board surface before fixing the paper plan?
* what is a suitable adhesive for the task?
* what is the recommended approach to using the suggested glue?

PVA is a non-preferred medium as that product has a reputation of "wetting" the paper such that the paper stretches whilst laying and cockles when drying. I have had similar experiences when using Copydex or carpet laying glue - great for the foam underlay, useless for templates.

Your thoughts are welcome.

thank you, regards, Graham

regards, Graham

 

[SteveO]

A good question, and I'll raise you another. Is it necessary to include the paper at all?

As a relative newbie, I wouldn't have even considered leaving the sleepers – or any other part – still attached. What I would have done is to PVA (or Pritt) the sleepers onto the paper for the build then soak it off afterwards.

Obviously, this is if I would be building the trackwork off the baseboard with the intention of laying it progressively in sections.

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

Graham
My suggestion would be to use spraymount such as produced by 3M.
Tim

 

[Dog Star]

Is it necessary to include the paper at all?

As a relative newbie, I wouldn't have even considered leaving the sleepers – or any other part – still attached. What I would have done is to PVA (or Pritt) the sleepers onto the paper for the build then soak it off afterwards.

Obviously, this is if I would be building the trackwork off the baseboard with the intention of laying it progressively in sections.

I build track in two ways:-
1/ construct off of the baseboard and then lay as complete (-ish) pieces of PW / SC work;
2/ construct on the baseboard.

Method one wins if the required track is simple, for example plain line or single turnouts with a straight road... or if I am not laying the track! Plain line track is constructed in jigs where spacers of 1/16" ply maintain the sleeper spacing whilst simple turnouts are constructed over a template which is covered in adhesive film. Method one does not have the template stuck to the sleepers or timbers.

Method two is used when the track has several turnouts with "blocked through" timbering, such S&C work is often large,, tends to be fragile when lifted from a plan and not ameanable to handling without support.

Method two can be faster where the "complete" plan is available as a full-size template. In the case being discussed the layout is about 15'0" end to end, on a continuous curve and contains several "simple" turnouts with some interesting sleepering / timbering - no matter which way the idea was considered neither of us could see the benefits of using method one.

Soaking a template from trackwork is not a good idea when using steel rail.

regards, Graham

 

[Dog Star]

My suggestion would be to use spraymount such as produced by 3M.

Which product works when used with paper on an untreated wood surface? I ask because I have used some spray adhesives from the DIY superstores and the hold is not necessarily permanent (seems to be dependent upon the surface finish of the substrate).

 

[martin_wynne]

Hi Graham,

Print from Templot on thicker paper -- at least 160gsm. This is almost a thin card, it can be stuck down without cockling, and is a more stable layer than thin paper if left in place under the track.

It is also much easier to assemble the separate pages. They can be butted together like tiles after trimming to the red lines.

regards,

Martin.

 

[richard carr]

Graham

On croscombe we used 100gsm A4 paper stuck onto mdf with wallpaper paste with the mdf screwed to the baseboard surface.

Richard

 

[alcazar]

Martin, if leaving the paper in place, how is the track fixed to the baseboard?

Sorry if it's daft question, mine often are around this time of night...can't understand it, (Takes another sip of brandy).

 

[Dog Star]

... if leaving the paper in place, how is the track fixed to the baseboard?

Not a daft question at all especially as the reason for this topic is to ensure that the approach is sound.

Even though the sleeper and timber positions are shown on the track plan there may be some moving of the "woodwork" as construction proceeds - given that, as I understand things, the model is to represent a small corner of the GER lost in the fog of history down the East End somewhere; hence the "chapter and verse of Victorian S&C practice on the GER for modellers" has yet to be written. The "sticking" of sleepers /timbers to the plan is likely to be with small dabs of UHU (other addictive smelling glues are available)... with the track held secure to the plan when the track is ballasted (likely to be Woodland Scenics and BBQ ash sprayed with Scenic Cement).

Hence the question about fixing the plan to the baseboard surface - the last thing anyone wants is for the track to remain stuck to the plan... with the plan floating unrestrained.

Print from Templot on thicker paper - at least 160gsm.

I like the idea... all shall depend on availability of such stuff for an A3 printer. Why A3? 'Cos when we printed Hartley Hill for the first time we got something like 65 sheets of A4 and that took an awful lot of work to assemble the tessarae let alone stick to a work surface.

On croscombe we used 100gsm A4 paper stuck onto mdf with wallpaper paste...

Thank you Richard, unless you have some special product / magic ingredient, mixing the old faithful Polycell powder (presumably other pastes are available) requires water - what stops that paste from affecting the paper of the plan? (or the surface of the MDF?)

 

[martin_wynne]

I like the idea... all shall depend on availability of such stuff for an A3 printer.

160gsm A3:

http://www.staples.co.uk/paper-note...ose-paper/a3-original-paper-160gsm-250-sheets

Even better - 240gsm A3 if your printer has a straight paper path:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/sheets-White-Plain-Vanguard-240gsm/dp/B00C1G3ESG/

Martin.

 

[Dikitriki]

Hello Martin

On the off-chance you know...... are you aware of any 200gsm plus A3 paper/matt photo paper that is self-adhesive?

Yours

Richard

 

[Osgood]

OK this crazy idea might be a non-starter, but in recent years vinyl coverings (for auto signwriting etc) have come tumbling down in price. They are now used for example for most site safety signs and indeed most individual H&S signage from A5 upwards. I imagine the stability would be extremely good and therefore as accurate as the file used for printing, but could you live with the gloss finish?

Also, long lengths / widths can be printed out, so if you can put the track plan on one file and have a reasonably level sub-base to work with it will be just one (albeit nail-biting) operation to transfer plan to board.

Having said that you can get large prints done on a wide range very stable paper and other plastic-based drafting mediums done at any specialist print shop (find one that the local architects use, not a high street printer).

So the problem may boil down to the difficulty/complexity of getting the accurate track plan as a whole or large parts into file form for printing. I haven't thought about that yet (if time permits I'd like to start looking at Templot - is there an overall size limit with that?)

If I can justify an A3 replacement printer I'd be tempted to use individual sheets. Also my intended (mainly industrial) track will hopefully look like its been attacked by a Plasser & Theurer machine on a drug-induced frenzy, so not sure about getting yinyl to follow the contours, but the one piece plan idea above may suit someone?

 

[richard carr]

GRaham


Thank you Richard, unless you have some special product / magic ingredient, mixing the old faithful Polycell powder (presumably other pastes are available) requires water - what stops that paste from affecting the paper of the plan? (or the surface of the MDF?)[/quote]



I use the ready mixed paste that you can get in B and Q. I don't know what you mean by affecting the paper ? the paper needs to be well "wetted" with paste and laid down carefully. This is the biggest problem with track plans, Templot draws near perfect templates but sticking those to the baseboards introduces a certain degree of inaccuracy, it took a long time to do this on Croscombe and it still wasn't perfect, but I can't see a better solution.


Richard

 

[richard carr]

Although using thicker paper, vinyl etc is a good idea, there is a significant cost increase in doing so over 80/100 gms paper, you wouldn't want to get it wrong when you print it out.

Richard

 

[JimG]

Graham,

I tend to build all of my trackwork off the baseboard. I print out the Templot drawings and stick them down onto my building board with Selotape at the edges and corners - so little danger of the paper changing size from the action of glues. The sleepers/timbers are stuck to the paper with small dabs of PVA on each sleeper. When the track is built, it is stuck down to the baseboard complete with paper templates. I use 50/50 dilute Copydex for this. The templates are then stained so that they don't show up under the ballast. This staining takes place when I stain the sleepers - I prefer to stain my sleepers after the track is laid.

Jim.

 

[Dog Star]

I tend to build all of my trackwork off the baseboard. I print out the Templot drawings and stick them down onto my building board with Selotape at the edges and corners - so little danger of the paper changing size from the action of glues. The sleepers/timbers are stuck to the paper with small dabs of PVA on each sleeper. When the track is built, it is stuck down to the baseboard complete with paper templates. I use 50/50 dilute Copydex for this. The templates are then stained so that they don't show up under the ballast. This staining takes place when I stain the sleepers - I prefer to stain my sleepers after the track is laid.

Thank you Jim, what you describe is a successful method where the size of the template / track is manageable and I do use this method on such occasions. The 7mm track for Hartley Hill was built in place because of the amount of blocking through which generated "chunks" of around four to five feet for just two or three turnouts.

In the case of the discussion about a S7 33mm Challenge layout, the reasons for going with "in-situ" build are that the trackwork is likely to be built before the baseboards (Oh, Mother!) and securing the track to a 6mm ply substrate seems a sensible way of overcoming damage to the permanent way. Yes, the track could be built "off-site" and then the track could be stuck to the substrate for transport - there is only so much time for model railways!

 

[Dog Star]

I use the ready mixed paste that you can get in B and Q... ...the paper needs to be well "wetted" with paste and laid down carefully. This is the biggest problem with track plans, Templot draws near perfect templates but sticking those to the baseboards introduces a certain degree of inaccuracy, it took a long time to do this on Croscombe and it still wasn't perfect, but I can't see a better solution.

Richard,

Paste on the paper or paste on the baseboard?

What process do you recommend for pasting / laying a multi-part template?

What are the inaccuracies / where do the inaccuracies show up?

Sorry for so many questions, Richard, getting a workable process for the foundation layer is desirable for a decent result.

regards, Graham

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

Graham,
In my experience the best place to get decent spray mount, as used for mounting pictures and producing displays, is a decent art supplies shop. They should be able to sort you out with something suitable, I can't recommend a particular product as I haven't needed to use any for a few years.
Tim

 

[alcazar]

Paste the baseboard, lay the template, use a dry sponge to gently dab it down and flat, or a roller/cheap sponge roller.
TRY to avoid much heavy wiping/pressing as this is what stretches the paper.

It's just like wallpapering, really, except in little bits.

Oh, and Don't make the paste too thick, I tend to use a hand-held liquidiser to remove lumps for lighter papers.