WW1 Ammunition boxes

[Martin Shaw]

I am currently building a pair of WDLR D class wagons and included for me were some ammunition boxes.


The wagons will be all over grey however I have no clue what colour wooden ammo boxes were. I would think their lifespan was fairly short, most seem to have ended up as fuel for cooking or warmth and indeed may not have been painted at all. Obviously laser etched plywood is not protoypical, any military historian out there who might have an opinion?
Martin

 

[40057]

I am currently building a pair of WDLR D class wagons and included for me were some ammunition boxes.
View attachment 253161

The wagons will be all over grey however I have no clue what colour wooden ammo boxes were. I would think there lifespan was fairly short, most seem to have ended up as fuel for cooking or warmth and indeed may not have been painted at all. Obviously laser etched plywood is not protoypical, any militray historipan out there who might have an opinion?
Martin

The lettering on the boxes suggests the manufacturer didn’t expect them to be painted?

 

[Rob Pulham]

Hi Martin,

Doing an image search via Google for "WWI wooden ammo box" has them pretty much all unpainted, irrespective of which country they originated from.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Might be some info here
WWI ammo box color

 

[Martin Shaw]

Col's post was most helpful if somewhat American in direction however shades of grey/drab olive/whatever was laying around/unpainted seems to fit the bill. I'm currently waiting on the kit designer to return from the high seas, he will no doubt give his thoughts and solve some bogie couplings issues I hope. Meanwhile the boxes have been assembled, probably their final state if my rate of progress is a useful measure.

Martin

 

[Osgood]

I was curious about the markings on the boxes - a www search yielded for "WW1 Ammunition Box STH (NZ) LROC" (I can't read the smaller print on another box) yielded only this, from AI - so where does that leave me other than being somewhat sceptical?

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• Al Overview​

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A World War 1 era ammunition box with marks "STH (NZ)" and "LROC" refers to a New Zealand-issued, likely wooden, crate used for storing and transporting munitions during 1914-1918. The "STH" likely indicates a South Island designation or inspector, while "LROC" may refer to "London Rifle Oil Company" or similar manufacturer-related markings standard on that era's crates.​

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Key Aspects of WWI NZ Ammo Boxes:​

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• Identification: Markings often included the arsenal, manufacturer initials (like LROC), and ownership, such as the New Zealand Expeditionary Force (NZEF).​

 

[PhilH]

I don't know if this helps - taken at a WWI event at Apedale in 2014. The answer seems to be unpainted - presumably whoever made the boxes would have done some research.

 

[Overseer]

I was curious about the markings on the boxes - a www search yielded for "WW1 Ammunition Box STH (NZ) LROC" I can't read the small print) yielded only this, from AI - so where does that leave me other than being somewhat sceptical?

​

• Al Overview​

​

A World War 1 era ammunition box with marks "STH (NZ)" and "LROC" refers to a New Zealand-issued, likely wooden, crate used for storing and transporting munitions during 1914-1918. The "STH" likely indicates a South Island designation or inspector, while "LROC" may refer to "London Rifle Oil Company" or similar manufacturer-related markings standard on that era's crates.​

​

Key Aspects of WWI NZ Ammo Boxes:​

​

• Identification: Markings often included the arsenal, manufacturer initials (like LROC), and ownership, such as the New Zealand Expeditionary Force (NZEF).​

What a load of twaddle you have been given. The boxes have '5th (NZ) LROC' on them = Fifth Light Railway Operating Company (New Zealand Engineers). 5th LROC was on the Western Front from February 1917.

 

[Overseer]

Edwin Charles Garbett (2nd LROC / 16th Australian LROC) agrees with unpainted ammunition boxes.


But note the wagons are painted as a green shade (olive green?) with black bogies and underframes, while the locos are black. The next painting confirms the wagon colours. I have posted this image previously in reference to the interestingly coloured camouflage on the water tank. It shows the Simplex as being in a similar green colour to the wagons.





Garbett shows all the steam locos as black or grey.


Note the F class wagon is painted green and black in this painting. I think the grey scheme shown on the preserved example in Phil's photo is unlikely as it is too close to the colour used by the German Army. There must be a specification somewhere.


Garbett was a professional railway man and trained engineer who worked at the Western Australian Government Railway's Midland workshops. He was probably a bit obsessive, or a modeller - cab details of a German Borsig tank loco.


Edit: The link to these and more of Garbett's drawings in higher resolution is https://collectionswa.net.au/search...t_by=field_registration_number&sort_order=ASC

 

[Osgood]

What a wonderful resource and collection, thank you @Overseer for the link.

And what a great example of the kind of PT (plausible twaddle) that AI generates, and how appalling the outcome of AI will become for us all.....

 

[simond]

Trouble is it is inevitably an echo chamber, the more PT it generates, the more PT it will “read”, and therefore the more determined it will be that “statistically, it’s true”.

 

[PhilH]

But note the wagons are painted as a green shade (olive green?) with black bogies and underframes, while the locos are black. The next painting confirms the wagon colours. I have posted this image previously in reference to the interestingly coloured camouflage on the water tank. It shows the Simplex as being in a similar green colour to the wagons.

Note the F class wagon is painted green and black in this painting. I think the grey scheme shown on the preserved example in Phil's photo is unlikely as it is too close to the colour used by the German Army. There must be a specification somewhere.

"WDLR Album" (Roy Link RCL Publications 2014) contains details of all the WDLR wagon types including 7mm scale drawings, and with regard to the livery states the following:
"When delivered it is thought that the WDLR wagons were supplied in 'War Office Grey' or 'Battleship Grey' overall - with either white or yellow lettering. There continues to be some debate over the livery"
Also regarding specifically the workshop train: "Livery was described in a contemporary account as 'Customary War Office Grey' and lettered in yellow as necessary".

 

[Overseer]

"WDLR Album" (Roy Link RCL Publications 2014) contains details of all the WDLR wagon types including 7mm scale drawings, and with regard to the livery states the following:
"When delivered it is thought that the WDLR wagons were supplied in 'War Office Grey' or 'Battleship Grey' overall - with either white or yellow lettering. There continues to be some debate over the livery"
Also regarding specifically the workshop train: "Livery was described in a contemporary account as 'Customary War Office Grey' and lettered in yellow as necessary".

Yes, I have both WDLR Album and WDLR Companion. One inconclusive sentence with no mention of who thinks they were grey is not satisfactory in hundreds of pages of solid information. I have been keeping an eye out for any evidence to progress the debate. Looking at the photographs in the two books suggests there is plenty of support for a black bogie and underframe with green woodwork scheme, more than there is for all over grey. But still not conclusive.

Roy Link coloured Simplexes and other i/c locos green, which matches Garbett’s paintings, so why not green wagons?

What is War Office Grey? Where was it used?

Somewhere there will be specifications or records of paint purchases by the wagon builders. If it was olive green the purchase records might only record black and yellow pigments as the traditional recipe for olive green was lamp black with some chrome yellow mixed in.

 

[PhilH]

I'm not sure how much you should draw your conclusions about WDLR livery from the colours in Garbett's sketches, in the third sketch down the trees are blue !
In the second sketch the Simplex does indeed have a green tint, but compared with that I make the bogie wagon as grey ????

 

[Martin Shaw]

Well this has turned into an interesting little diversion. I suspect that the official photos at the makers were all over grey, there are the pics of the D class built by Blake Engineering , G.R.Turner, and Clayton & Shuttleworth all basically grey with minor variations. Contrastingly the Bristol Wagon works one could well be a darker shade of grey or something else. Not with standing the info pointed out by Phil and the contra indication by Overseer I note and can only find the single colour reference in the book being grey and the coloured cover of WDLR Album shows grey wagons which is sufficient evidence for my needs. It's also the easiest to apply which figures very highly for me. If someone does come up with the WD specification for wagon painting and I've painted mine wrongly I'll worry about it then, or probably not.

In answer to Osgood's post up thread the diminutive writing on the ammo boxes say ".303 Rifle Ammunition". Does this seem likely?
Martin

 

[Osgood]

Yep - Lee Enfield rations.